CBS62 (WWJ) New Logo...again...

[Mrtraveler01 737]

The real issue with stations like WWJ and KDNL are that they were newcomers in a market full of established heritage stations. These two stations had the extra challenge to get viewers out of their habits of turning on 2,4,5 and 7 to turn to 30 and 62 for their news. Obviously as others have pointed out, this proved to be very difficult as viewers are stuck in their habits. Which explains why I still watch KMOV even though it's not the same KMOV it was when I was little.

 

Sinclair and CBS both saw how difficult it was and instead of continuing to fight those habits, they ran instead.

 

Long story short, the problem with WWJ and KDNL isn't that they were on a UHF signal moreso than they were newcomers.

 

Unless KPLR gets the ABC affiliation (which is very doubtful considering the clout Sinclair has now), ABC will be at the bottom of the barrel here in St. Louis. In Detroit, CBS will be in the bottom of the barrel no matter if it's on 62,50,20, or if the CRTC and CBC both get high enough to allow it...9 unless it starts investing in their newscasts to fight against their competitors. CBS's best shot in Detroit was WKBD or WXYZ but their owners both said no.

 

A good example is Cleveland, even though CBS left WJW, it moved over to WOIO whose newscasts at 11 PM are in 2nd in the market. So KDNL and WWJ can fight the stigma of being a newcomer, they just decide not to.

[mre29 1343]

There is no way in God's Green Earth that the CBC would ever do anything like that. It is a literal branch of the Canadian Government, and even as CBET has become a mere repeater of flagship CBLT/Toronto, it is still a valuable asset and a key station for their network. BOTH the FCC and CRTC would resoundingly reject it the second such a plan would be announced.

Not only would they reject it, they'd probably laugh it right out of their offices.

 

I don't know how many times this has to be repeated, but channel numbers no longer matter in the post-2009 environment. They are irrelevant. They are meaningless. There is no disparity. It is an equalized playing field now.

Tell that to the people obsessed with seeing NBC return to KRON.

[DirtyHarry 719]

A good example is Cleveland, even though CBS left WJW, it moved over to WOIO whose newscasts at 11 PM are in 2nd in the market. So KDNL and WWJ can fight the stigma of being a newcomer, they just decide not to.

See below:

 

Of course their signal now is crap, but are you seriously going to tell me that WOIO doesn't benefit from being clustered with 3,5 and 8? Lets put em up just under 61 and see what happens! And also being clustered the same way on cable?

 

 

3 17 WKYC CLEVELAND OH

5 15 WEWS-TV CLEVELAND OH

8 8 WJW CLEVELAND OH

17 49 WDLI-TV CANTON OH

19 10, 24 WOIO SHAKER HEIGHTS OH

23 23 WVPX-TV AKRON OH On

25 26 WVIZ CLEVELAND OH

25 38 W38ET-D EASTLAKE OH

27 27 W27DG-D MILLERSBURG OH

29 29 WAOH-LP AKRON OH

32 32 WRAP-LP CLEVELAND OH

35 16 W35AX CLEVELAND OH

39 39 WIVM-LD CANTON OH On

43 28 WUAB LORAIN OH On

47 47 WRLM CANTON OH On

49 50 WEAO AKRON OH On

52 42 WGGN-TV SANDUSKY OH

53 7 WCDN-LD CLEVELAND OH

55 30 WBNX-TV AKRON OH On

61 34 WQHS-DT CLEVELAND

[Mrtraveler01 737]

I just realized that WFTS (ABC Action News) in Tampa also disproves this theory too even though it's on Channel 28.

 

They're now #1 in the market at 11pm as well as 5:30pm.

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/wfts-tv-s-abc-action-news-continues-surge-ratings

[CircleSeven 1945]

Of course their signal now is crap, but are you seriously going to tell me that WOIO doesn't benefit from being clustered with 3,5 and 8? Lets put em up just under 61 and see what happens! And also being clustered the same way on cable?

Raycom is not going to move. Although I do agree with WOIO's RF channel allotment is one the VHF dial (10) and its problematic, Raycom is not going to pay all that money on UHF equipment, despite having a UHF translator in Shaker Heights on RF 24. And why would you want WOIO to be near those three other channels? And again, what difference does make if they're not on a lower channel number?!!! We all explained to you what the deal is. And you are absolutely making no sense.

 

I just realized that WFTS (ABC Action News) in Tampa also disproves this theory too even though it's on Channel 28.

 

They're now #1 in the market at 11pm as well as 5:30pm.

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/wfts-tv-s-abc-action-news-continues-surge-ratings

Good for Channel 28. What happen to WFLA, they're falling off the wagon?

[GoldenShine9 1509]

Simply put, there was no room for any new station in the Detroit market on VHF - the border does hem things in as well. An assignment on Channels 3, 6, 8 or 10 would create co-channel interference. That leaves 5, 11, 12 and 13:

 

5 - Saginaw (85 miles away)

 

11 - Toledo (50 miles away)

 

12 - Flint (55 miles away)

 

13 - Toledo (50 miles away)

 

None of those could be slotted in Detroit without problems. No matter what, the situation was that CBS was forced to UHF anyway with the loss of WJBK. However, what I think really did them in was the fact that the top 3 news operations there are all very competitive and none were, or are today, dominant. If one of them dominated ratings in Detroit, then WWJ (or whatever took over) may have had an opening to build up, like in some other markets (say, Birmingham with 33/40). But they were doomed for failure and guaranteed to be a distant 4th unless others screwed up badly.

[Mrtraveler01 737]

 

 

Good for Channel 28. What happen to WFLA, they're falling off the wagon?

 

I don't live in the market but my impression is that WFLA got too complacent and stale while its competitors got more aggressive and started investing more in their local newscasts than Media General did with WFLA.

[GoldenShine9 1509]

 

I don't live in the market but my impression is that WFLA got too complacent and stale while its competitors got more aggressive and started investing more in their local newscasts than Media General did with WFLA.

 

Another possibility could be weakness of the NBC network programming.

[Mrtraveler01 737]

 

Simply put, there was no room for any new station in the Detroit market on VHF - the border does hem things in as well. An assignment on Channels 3, 6, 8 or 10 would create co-channel interference. That leaves 5, 11, 12 and 13:

 

5 - Saginaw (85 miles away)

 

11 - Toledo (50 miles away)

 

12 - Flint (55 miles away)

 

13 - Toledo (50 miles away)

 

None of those could be slotted in Detroit without problems. No matter what, the situation was that CBS was forced to UHF anyway with the loss of WJBK. However, what I think really did them in was the fact that the top 3 news operations there are all very competitive and none were, or are today, dominant. If one of them dominated ratings in Detroit, then WWJ (or whatever took over) may have had an opening to build up, like in some other markets (say, Birmingham with 33/40). But they were doomed for failure and guaranteed to be a distant 4th unless others screwed up badly.

 

Same exact situation in St. Louls. KMOV and KSDK battle each other for the top spot while KTVI just coasts by. As a result, there wasn't much room for KDNL to fit in and get a piece of the pie, so to speak.

[Mrtraveler01 737]

 

Another possibility could be weakness of the NBC network programming.

 

That's a good point as well. It's probably a combination of these things.

 

But the fact that they're slipping in every time slot leads me to think that it is more than just NBC's programming impacting WFLA's ratings.

 

Here is a better article listing the ratings in each time slot during sweeps in May:

 

http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/media/may-sweeps-ratings-abc-action-news-and-foxs-wtvt-ch-13-score-as-each/2123608

[jero23 105]

 

That's a good point as well. It's probably a combination of these things.

 

But the fact that they're slipping in every time slot leads me to think that it is more than just NBC's programming impacting WFLA's ratings.

 

Here is a better article listing the ratings in each time slot during sweeps in May:

 

http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/media/may-sweeps-ratings-abc-action-news-and-foxs-wtvt-ch-13-score-as-each/2123608

 

That's Media General for ya! Half-ass attempts results in weak ratings. They don't ever believe in investing into their station's news operations.

[Rusty Muck 4225]

Of course as a government channel there is no profit motive, but when it was privately owned? I bet the owners would have loved to have CBS.

The CBC has owned channel 9 since 1970... first in a five-year long joint venture with Baton Broadcasting (which took over CKLW/800) and outright since 1975. Channel 9 hasn't been privately owned for close to 38 years, and 19 years before the Fox/New World deal was announced.

 

RKO General sold off CKLW-TV partially because of pressure from the CRTC, per a decree that any ownership group had to have at least 80% Canadian interest. A rule that is still enforced to this day (alongside the infamous "Canadian content" rules for all music-formatted radio stations, and their specific licenses for Canadian specialty cable channels).

 

And that's just the CRTC we're dealing with here.

 

I think my post above proves that channel placement is still important. It has less to do with your number than where you are clustered. High number clusters you with TBN, Pax, Home Shopping and Univision. Low channel number gets you in with the other network affiliates.

No, it has more to do with if a station owner wants to invest and take the time to build up a station. Because...

 

A good example is Cleveland, even though CBS left WJW, it moved over to WOIO whose newscasts at 11 PM are in 2nd in the market. So KDNL and WWJ can fight the stigma of being a newcomer, they just decide not to.

Don't forget, too, that WOIO languished in the ratings in the late 90s after taking the CBS affiliation (their news department was effectively built from then-LMA partner WUAB, which itself suffered badly in the ratings after WJW's late news moved from 11 to 10) and even changed their branding multiple times.

 

It wasn't until Raycom took over that massive changes took place - the hiring of Bill Applegate, the implementation of "Action News" (with an approach and delivery that was and still is controversial at times, but STILL unique in the market) and a total overhaul in programming, eventually picking up the prized "WOF/J!" combo from WEWS - that WOIO gradually started to become a serious contender in the ratings. They've been strong at 11pm for awhile, and too a similar extent at noon (where Drew Carey's "Price is Right" serves as a great lead-in). And that's with a crappy DTV OTA signal!

 

A similar story took place at WIAT/46, which for decades was WBMG, a pitiful excuse for a CBS affiliate in Brimingham. But over 15 years of significant investment, coupled with a sale to LIN, has paid off in the long run.

 

If CBS wanted to, they easily could make some massive investments into WWJ-TV, and slowly build up a news ops the way that Applegate did at WOIO... or like what Fox is doing at WJZY. Or what Media General and LIN have done with WIAT. It would be a risk venture, and could take years to pan out in ratings and revenue. Which is key: CBS doesn't really care about doing anything with WWJ-TV. And they never have, and likely never will.

 

But there are clear examples that show, with concrete proof, that channel placement is no longer relevant, and hasn't been since the late 1990s. Which is ironic, considering the reasons behind the Fox/New World deal in the first place.

[DirtyHarry 719]

That's Media General for ya! Half-ass attempts results in weak ratings. They don't ever believe in investing into their station's news operations.

I think MG invests in WCMH, WFLA and WJAR ... They are the big moneymakers. Don't know about the rest. They seem to be small time operations.

 

WCMH was a great station under Outlet, as part of a two-station (later three) group. Great talent and innovative. There is a video on line where they take you through the control room to inaugurate the WWHO duopoly back in the 1990s. They claim it was the first in the nation. WCMH became a parade of diversity under NBC. Now, its just plain boring under MG.

 

In MG's defense, they still have a chopper and its hard to "invest" in your stations when you are barely avoiding bankruptcy.

 

Video:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jvQiHTWw4o

[DirtyHarry 719]

No, it has more to do with if a station owner wants to invest and take the time to build up a station.

 

 

All the local stations here were among the lowest channels on TimeWarner. Ch 53 was placed at its channel number. You don't think this has an effect?

 

You don't think having W23BZ/Bounce on Ch. 280-something away from anything local affects viewership?

 

You don't think having WFTS grouped with all the other affiliates on cable is part of the reason they became successful?

 

Human nature dictates that it HAS to.

 

I'm not saying its the only factor, but its more important than you think. When CNN jockeys to be on Channel 9, there's a reason for it.

[Rusty Muck 4225]

Pardon my french but what the hell is this?

 

Are you seriously suggesting that CBC give up the only local media outlet in Windsor to sell to CBS? Can you imagine the firestorm that would result in such a suggestion being taken seriously? The CRTC would raise hell and then some if Americans try to buy out the only local TV station in Windsor.

 

And why would CBS want to buy a Windsor TV station anyways? It still has to compete with WJBK, WDIV, and WXYZ, that was why WWJ failed in the first place, not because it was on a UHF signal.

 

We really need to drop this obsession that people have that moving higher up on the dial is going to make a difference in today's world. It doesn't.

Actually, there is one other local station in Windsor - CHWI/16 "CTV two" - owned by BellMedia, the S!nclair of the Great White North. But regardless, the argument is still 100% on-the-money.

[Rusty Muck 4225]

All the local stations here were among the lowest channels on TimeWarner. Ch 53 was placed at its channel number. You don't think this has an effect?

You don't think having W23BZ/Bounce on Ch. 280-something away from anything local affects viewership?

You don't think having WFTS grouped with all the other affiliates on cable is part of the reason they became successful?

Human nature dictates that it HAS to.

I'm not saying its the only factor, but its more important than you think. When CNN jockeys to be on Channel 9, there's a reason for it.

People will look for programming wherever it is. Cable companies make the choice to cluster stations together as what serves them best. For my cable provider (also TWC) WOIO was placed on channel 4 on cable back in 1995 or so, well before Raycom, Bill Applegate, "Action News" or any ratings.

 

CNN, Fox and CNBC are in the mid-30 channel range, alongside Fox SportsTime Ohio, the Big Ten Network, TBS and C-SPAN. All aforementioned channels have wildly different degrees of ratings performance.

 

If people want to watch something on a specific channel, they will seek it out, wherever it is. Look at "Duck Dynasty" on A&E, the non-history shows on History Channel, the non-learning shows on TLC, and "Amish Mafia" on Discovery. Those cases of channel drift have been where lowbrow programming attracts a wider audience than the highbrow offerings either of those channels previously held. And none of those channels have any low dial position, least on my cable provider.

 

To paraphrase a well-known political pundit, it's the content, stupid. There is no excuse why CBS 62 can't be more than just a shell of a station, a virtual "pass-through" of syndicated shows and no local content. None.

[Mrtraveler01 737]

You don't think having WFTS grouped with all the other affiliates on cable is part of the reason they became successful

Not as much as the ABC programming and the investment Scripps has put into their newscasts.

 

The fact its on channel 28 makes little difference in today's world.

[mre29 1343]

All the local stations here were among the lowest channels on TimeWarner. Ch 53 was placed at its channel number. You don't think this has an effect?

The cable system in my town has WFXT's SD feed on its channel number, 25 -- the only major English-language broadcast station in the market that isn't in the 2-12 range. I seriously doubt 25's ratings are suffering as a result.

 

(The HD feed is on channel 706, but there's little rhyme or reason for the channel lineup for the HD tier.)