Media General, Young to merge

[DirtyHarry 719]

"This was an exceedingly rare occurrence with old analog NTSC-modulated cable systems, and is definitely not an issue with current all-digital, QAM-modulated systems. Quality coax cable is insulated to where this was not a major issue."

 

Pretty common on my system. Depending on the weather 4, 6 and 10 could be a mess on the analog side without a box. And you forget the issue with second and third TVs.

[DirtyHarry 719]

"Meh. In the words of Gary Radnich, "Nobody cares.""

 

Well, well soon see who's right ...

[Mrtraveler01 737]

 

"Meh. In the words of Gary Radnich, "Nobody cares.""

 

Well, well soon see who's right ...

 

People have been watching it on KNTV Ch. 11 and Cable 3 for over 10 years now when they want to look for NBC programming, moving back to Channel 4 will disrupt that and no one is going to give a damn about the fact that was the old frequency for NBC back in the 20th Century outside of TV industry buffs like us.

 

 

Easy explanation: When KNTV moved into the San Francisco market in 2001, Granite negotiated with AT&T Broadband (now Comcast) to place it between KTVU and KRON in the cable lineup. What better place for a new station to be than right between the two top news stations in the market at the time? Thus NBC "3" was born. When NBC bought the station in December 2001, the NBC "3" train had already left the station and there wasn't enough time/desire to change it before the switch on 1/1/02.

 

I'm not sure when the decision was made to switch to the NBC 11 brand, but I think it was a typical last-minute thing. I recall seeing some demo/proof-of-concept graphics on the old RudeHoney site (anyone remember them?) that showed a new NBC "3" logo in the style of what became the NBC 11 logo, with the "3" set in Trade Gothic Extended. I think there were even a few live trucks that received the updated NBC "3" branding before it was pulled.

 

If I remember correctly, the "NBC 3" brand was abandoned because of the fact that the Sacramento NBC affiliate is on Channel 3 and people kept confusing the two. Especially out in the East Bay where people could get KCRA over the air and and some cable systems carried both.

[mre29 1340]

 

Comcast already has a strong presence on KRON. I do not think they would have to start from scratch. The 24/7 Newschannel and CSN Bay Area have a visible presence on Channel 4.

 

Hopefully, they'd bring the entire KNTV news operation with them.

 

 

 

If I we're NBC I would do it just for.the upgraded frequency and the buzz factor of going back to Channel 4.

 

Is this worth $100 million? No.

 

Is this worth $100 million minus what you can sell VHF 11 for? Probably.

 

 

But is it worth throwing away all the work NBC put into KNTV? Or throwing the employees there under the bus and confusing (and upsetting) a lot of local people?

 

 

 

People have been watching it on KNTV Ch. 11 and Cable 3 for over 10 years now when they want to look for NBC programming, moving back to Channel 4 will disrupt that and no one is going to give a damn about the fact that was the old frequency for NBC back in the 20th Century outside of TV industry buffs like us.

 

Bingo.

[Thundershock MN 169]

Let's try this again.

 

NBC has flat out shot this down several times, now. “This rumor comes up regularly,” the group said in a June statement. “We’ve had no discussions about buying KRON and don’t expect to have any.”

 

“They have a station [in the Bay Area],” said a former NBC exec. “They have a great facility. The market knows who they are. What’s the upside of going to KRON?”

[Mrtraveler01 737]

Let's try this again.

 

NBC has flat out shot this down several times, now. “This rumor comes up regularly,” the group said in a June statement. “We’ve had no discussions about buying KRON and don’t expect to have any.”

 

“They have a station [in the Bay Area],” said a former NBC exec. “They have a great facility. The market knows who they are. What’s the upside of going to KRON?”

The only legitimate gain would be a better OTA signal. Something that KRON is partiality responsible for because they tried to stop KNTV from moving its transmitter further north to better cover SF. But that is something that is probably low on the priority list for NBC.

 

Everything else is superficial nonsense that probably no one outside of TV buffs would care about.

[Rusty Muck 4168]

Let's try this again.

 

NBC has flat out shot this down several times, now. “This rumor comes up regularly,” the group said in a June statement. “We’ve had no discussions about buying KRON and don’t expect to have any.”“They have a station [in the Bay Area],” said a former NBC exec. “They have a great facility. The market knows who they are. What’s the upside of going to KRON?”

The only legitimate gain would be a better OTA signal. Something that KRON is partiality responsible for because they tried to stop KNTV from moving its transmitter further north to better cover SF. But that is something that is probably low on the priority list for NBC.

Everything else is superficial nonsense that probably no one outside of TV buffs would care about.

If NBC ever bought KRON, it ONLY would be to swap the signal with KNTV's (not the PSIP). Then spin off KRON, on the current KNTV transmitter, to a third party.

 

And even that would be unnecessary. HDTV, PSIP and cable penetration have all but made the supposed "value" of being on channel 4... or, rather, channel 38... not worth it.

[Rusty Muck 4168]

"So NBC is going to spend millions rebuilding a second station in the Bay Area in a little over a decade just so it has a better OTA signal just a few years after building a brand new facility and transmission tower for their current station?"

They didn't have to do that in Miami.

Sinclair thinks being on UHF is important enough that they upgraded at EVERY opportunity dump in VHF wherever they could. And you say OTA is irrelevant? You know more than David Smith? How many stations do you own?

------

"Do you really think they want to buy a station that would help their OTA station get better signal and maybe give people more incentive to "cut the cord", thus lose revenue in the process?"

Simplistic way of looking at things. If ALL OTA disappeared then you MIGHT have a point. But as long as there is OTA broadcasting, you're going to want the best facilities available and that means UHF.

Besides, it's not like they'll get nothing for the VHF station. They probably got it so cheap (remember, it was a podunk ABC affiliate), they'll probably still make money selling it when all is said and done.

The WTVJ upgrade with the HDTV switch was done pre-Comcast. And that was a simple no-brainer. WTVJ was severely short-spaced to the channel 6 facility in Orlando whilst an analog signal, and had to have their transmitter way out in Homestead. Neither CBS or NBC could succeed with a horrible signal like that.

 

As WTVJ no longer needed to be out in Homestead with the DTV switch, they were able to move the transmitter closer to Miami, and finally were on a somewhat level playing field with WFOR, WSVN and WPLG. And with the investment Comcast made in recent years, it really has made a difference for them in the market.

 

But WTVJ was a really exceptional situation. For all of the warts KNTV's DTV signal has, it's nowhere near that bad. And cable penetration makes up for whatever loss of market coverage KNTV has. They don't need to buy KRON, even for that reason.

[Mrtraveler01 737]

 

The WTVJ upgrade with the HDTV switch was done pre-Comcast. And that was a simple no-brainer. WTVJ was severely short-spaced to the channel 6 facility in Orlando whilst an analog signal, and had to have their transmitter way out in Homestead. Neither CBS or NBC could succeed with a horrible signal like that.

 

As WTVJ no longer needed to be out in Homestead with the DTV switch, they were able to move the transmitter closer to Miami, and finally were on a somewhat level playing field with WFOR, WSVN and WPLG. And with the investment Comcast made in recent years, it really has made a difference for them in the market.

 

But WTVJ was a really exceptional situation. For all of the warts KNTV's DTV signal has, it's nowhere near that bad. And cable penetration makes up for whatever loss of market coverage KNTV has. They don't need to buy KRON, even for that reason.

 

Yeah, comparing WTVJ's signal when it was out in Homestead to KNTV's signal (which is now just 5 miles South of Mount Sutro which is where KRON's tower is) is just absurd.

 

KNTV's signal is better able to cover their market compared to WTVJ who had to rely on translators to help cover portions of Broward County.

[Mrtraveler01 737]

Just to put things into perspective, here is the distance between KNTV's tower (A) and KRON's Tower ( B ).

 

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=mount+sutro&ie=UTF-8&ei=UIRoUteFKIiy9gSStYCADA&sqi=2&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg

 

Now here is the distance between WTVJ's old tower (A) to WTVJ's new tower ( B )

 

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=25791+Sw+167th+avenue+Homestead,+FL+to+nw+210th+st&ie=UTF-8&ei=AI1oUqKbIoeQ2QXvmoDYAQ&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAg

 

Comparing the two is nonsense.

[DirtyHarry 719]

"Yeah, comparing WTVJ's signal when it was out in Homestead to KNTV's signal (which is now just 5 miles South of Mount Sutro which is where KRON's tower is) is just absurd."

 

Missing the point.

 

This is ALL about the signal, with virtual Channel 4 and the KRON call letters as a bonus. They have brand value. If they didn't, CBS 62 would still be WGPR instead of WWJ and WCMH wouldn't have parked the WLWC call letters in Providence to keep competitors from using them. And why did Fox 8 grab the WJW call letter when they became available?

 

With regard to the Miami situation, I wasn't comparing signals. I was merely illustrating how easy it is to keep everything the same other than switching to another frequency. Similar situation when WSYX switched to UHF 48 from VHF 13 .... Here's what ran on VHF 13 for a few days after the switch:

 

 

Soooo .... Switch everything over to NBC 4 KRON, run this slide on KNTV for a few days until it becomes Fox 11. Easy as pie, in my opinion!

[Mrtraveler01 737]

 

"Yeah, comparing WTVJ's signal when it was out in Homestead to KNTV's signal (which is now just 5 miles South of Mount Sutro which is where KRON's tower is) is just absurd."

 

Missing the point.

 

This is ALL about the signal, with virtual Channel 4 and the KRON call letters as a bonus. They have brand value. If they didn't, CBS 62 would still be WGPR instead of WWJ and WCMH wouldn't have parked the WLWC call letters in Providence to keep competitors from using them. And why did Fox 8 grab the WJW call letter when they became available?

 

...

Soooo .... Switch everything over to NBC 4 KRON, run this slide on KNTV for a few days until it becomes Fox 11. Easy as pie, in my opinion!

 

And I'm trying to tell you that the signal between KNTV and KRON isn't that much of a difference now since they moved to their new facilities just 5 miles South of KRON's tower.

 

And I also keep telling you that no one outside of us cares what channel NBC is on in San Francisco. There is no brand value left at KRON anymore, whatever brand value was left at KRON was squandered due to Young's own incompetence. NBC doesn't use any call letter in their station's branding so the KRON call letters won't be featured that much if NBC were to buy them. The average viewer doesn't care if NBC is on Channel 11 or Channel 4, they just want to know what channel it's on.

 

Moving NBC to KRON and Fox to KNTV is just going to cause unnecessary confusion for viewers who have been accustomed to watching NBC on KNTV for 12 years now. A switch like that won't be "Easy as pie".

 

It's more likely that Fox would buy KRON if their relationship with KTVU goes sour and while all of that is going on, NBC continues to air on KNTV.

[DirtyHarry 719]

Then are all these people stupid? Is Sinclair stupid to jockey for UHF where ever they can? Was Outlet stupid to park a set of call letters that hadn't been used in 20 years so others couldn't have them?

 

Branding isn't everything. The substance of your product is what ultimately makes the sale. Nevertheless, a good brand can facilitate interest and drive customers to your business.

 

Why do you think they resurrected the Lucky name?

[Mrtraveler01 737]

 

Branding isn't everything. The substance of your product is what ultimately makes the sale. Nevertheless, a good brand can facilitate interest and drive customers to your business.

 

What is left of the KRON brand after Young obliterated it? I think NBC Bay Area has more cache in terms of Bay Area branding compared to KRON, and that's saying something.

[DirtyHarry 719]

Here ya go:

 

Check out the comments.

 

http://richliebermanreport.blogspot.com/2011/03/talk-radio-pioneer-joel-spivak-dead-at.html?m=1

[DirtyHarry 719]

Here's a comment that hits the nail on the head:

 

AnonymousMarch 7, 2011 at 10:54 AM

 

I think you hit the nail on the head. I live in San Francisco. When I tell people that I used to work in television here; they ask where, which station? KNTV, I say. Which station is that again? It's the NBC affiliate, I say. You mean channel 4, right? No, KNTV, it's actually cable channel 703. Is that in San Jose? Yes, the studios are in San Jose, but they cover the entire Bay Area.

 

The general viewing public, and by this I mean those that I interact with on a daily basis (middle-upper income professionals in SF, the peninsula, and Marin primarily) remember names, faces, and channel numbers, and that's about it. Sure, we news veterans go on and on and on about branding, and coverage, and writing, but I think because local news coverage is so generic and unimaginative anymore, the TV news business is now one of names and faces and channels. Maybe it was always that way...

 

Time and again, I find that even though they don't know that KNTV is the NBC affiliate or that the station covers the entire Bay Area, they do know Raj Mathia. They do know Scott Budman. They do know Jessica. And they do know the blond who does morning weather, even if they don't know her name.

[Mrtraveler01 737]

 

Here's a comment that hits the nail on the head:

 

AnonymousMarch 7, 2011 at 10:54 AM

 

I think you hit the nail on the head. I live in San Francisco. When I tell people that I used to work in television here; they ask where, which station? KNTV, I say. Which station is that again? It's the NBC affiliate, I say. You mean channel 4, right? No, KNTV, it's actually cable channel 703. Is that in San Jose? Yes, the studios are in San Jose, but they cover the entire Bay Area.

 

The general viewing public, and by this I mean those that I interact with on a daily basis (middle-upper income professionals in SF, the peninsula, and Marin primarily) remember names, faces, and channel numbers, and that's about it. Sure, we news veterans go on and on and on about branding, and coverage, and writing, but I think because local news coverage is so generic and unimaginative anymore, the TV news business is now one of names and faces and channels. Maybe it was always that way...

 

Time and again, I find that even though they don't know that KNTV is the NBC affiliate or that the station covers the entire Bay Area, they do know Raj Mathia. They do know Scott Budman. They do know Jessica. And they do know the blond who does morning weather, even if they don't know her name.

 

And moving back to KRON fixes all of that how? KRON hasn't been with NBC in over 12 years, people don't care that KRON used to be the NBC station back in the 20th Century.

 

But this post does raise a good point, it does come back to branding and NBC needs to figure out how to brand KNTV and stick to it, the constant change (NBC 3, NBC 11, NBC Bay Area) doesn't help them with that. Moving to KRON and Channel 4 won't make a difference because they will still need to establish a brand that is strong and sticks with viewers today, they won't care about the KRON of the 20th Century.

[sanewsguy 509]

 

Here ya go:

 

Check out the comments.

 

http://richliebermanreport.blogspot.com/2011/03/talk-radio-pioneer-joel-spivak-dead-at.html?m=1

 

[DirtyHarry 719]

I don't know what happened. I didn't even go to that page.

 

http://richliebermanreport.blogspot.com/2011/03/nbc-bay-areas-identity-problem-san-jose.html?m=1

[DirtyHarry 719]

One more ...

 

http://www.tvnewscheck.com/article/33183/vhf-throws-wrench-in-dtv-transition

[DirtyHarry 719]

Bendov says the FCC also did not adequately test DTV with indoor antennas.

 

"There's a special problem for VHF stations. If you connect [indoor antennas] to a DTV converter box, they actually degrade the performance of the receiver quite considerably. The receiver suffers a punch in the stomach when it's connected to these antennas.

 

"All TV stations, UHF and VHF, are not getting the service the FCC said they would, but when it comes to indoor reception there's a special problem for VHF stations," Bendov says.

[Rusty Muck 4168]

Five years from now, we will be arguing about this very same thing with no change whatsoever. It's an evergreen argument. It will never go away, regardless of what any of us say.

 

If NBC ever buys KRON, I will strip naked and jump into Lake Erie in the dead of winter.

[mre29 1340]

Okay, fine. NBC should buy KRON...

 

 

...and flip it to Spanish, moving KSTS's programming (both Telemundo and otherwise) to it and selling or donating the KSTS transmitter (which is off to the northeast of Silicon Valley).

 

Comcast/NBC gets KRON -- and a better OTA signal for their Telemundo station.

 

Spanish-speaking people in the Bay Area get a station with better OTA coverage.

 

Area progressives can get all excited over the thought of Telemundo 4.

 

And the people obsessed with NBC being back on KRON get to shut up.

 

The only loser would be Fox, which would be stuck with KTVU.

[DirtyHarry 719]

Can you kids not read?

 

"There's a special problem for VHF stations. If you connect [indoor antennas] to a DTV converter box, they actually degrade the performance of the receiver quite considerably. The receiver suffers a punch in the stomach when it's connected to these antennas.

 

Why wouldn't you upgrade if you had a chance and it makes economic sense?

[Mrtraveler01 737]

 

Can you kids not read?

 

"There's a special problem for VHF stations. If you connect [indoor antennas] to a DTV converter box, they actually degrade the performance of the receiver quite considerably. The receiver suffers a punch in the stomach when it's connected to these antennas.

 

Why wouldn't you upgrade if you had a chance and it makes economic sense?

Because NBC and KNTV could really move to a VHF signal if they really wanted to without moving to KRON. They just dont want to probably because NBC is fine having their signal on VHF.

 

Obviously NBC doesn't view having a UHF signal as high of a priority as you seem to view it and doesn't seem to think that it's worth spending millions and millions of dollars just to get a UHF signal.